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Determinism

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by Blake's Poisontree » Sat May 20, 2017 7:46 pm

the need for meaning it's what matters, not the meaning itself. If you consider the idea of meaning, it's preestasblished by our preconceived idea of things having a meaning, doesn't exactly mean that outside the realms of our minds (if you're not solipsistic) things do have meaning.


But don't you think we are trying to take control of the definition of meaning when it becomes a preconceived idea. If it is truly predetermined then we should not have to conceive of the concept, it will just exist and it is only our awareness of the degree of meaning that should hold our attention. For me the "need" for something implies control and free will, and without free will there is no control, without control we can only be aware.

The question of meaning I find hard. You see, I'm of the opinion that everything is actually meaningless.


Maybe because something is meaningless it can have meaning, its meaning is that it's meaningless. For something to exist it needs to come from somewhere, so for the concept of "no meaning" to exist it needs to come from something that has meaning. In fact, nothing is ever meaningless, it is only in a variable state of meaning.

“In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence is a phenomenon whereby larger entities arise through interactions among smaller or simpler entities such that the larger entities exhibit properties the smaller/simpler entities do not exhibit.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence


Science is continually proving relationships between objects that previously appeared to be unrelated. Anyways, if I understand this theory correctly they are talking about properties in the sense of similarities and differences. Can't we then say it is exactly because of those similarities and differences that previously undefined properties are now noticeable in the larger entities. As for experiments, just the fact that it is an experiment makes the result predetermined. There is no such thing as absolute objectivity, the observer in observing already influences the outcome.

I think all of this is a way for me to emotionally detach myself from circumstances that I find unpleasant and difficult to deal with. I have no control over it so I don't have to worry about it. The unfortunate side-effect is that because emotion doesn't just suddenly disappear because I want it to, I run the risk of being overwhelmed later on.
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by AvantGarde » Sat May 20, 2017 10:03 pm

I want it to have meaning, but I'm not sure it has. I also want us to have free will, but I'm not sure we do. Being certain of these questions is a dead end, because they have no real answer, you can always skew things in one direction or another, depending on the amount of knowledge or even how you feel at the time.

"I don't actually know" serves for everything.
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by hal » Sun May 21, 2017 7:20 am

Volition may not necessarily be something that exerts itself immediately or even consciously. In the response experiments (where the subject is asked to press a button upon seeing a light) the execution neurons in the motor cortex fire before the "decision" neurons in the frontal cortex. But the subject has previously willed this to happen. Oftentimes the body takes over after the mind has determined what it wants to do. Another example is when I wake up but am in no hurry to get out of bed. I know I'm going to get up in a few minutes (have willed it). Without choosing a particular moment, I find myself rising. Don't know if anybody else experiences something like this.
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by AvantGarde » Sun May 21, 2017 7:27 am

I have absolutely no control over my body when I wake up, it's all automatic. I get up automatically and open the bedroom door, only then I think "coffee". Not even joking here.
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by BillyGoat » Sun May 21, 2017 10:10 am

I swing with the existentialists on this topic.

Free will is all we have. The choices that we make in life (chosen freely) define us.

Our personalities are shaped by our previous choices in life, but because we have the ability to choose anything in the future, we aren't defined by our prior choices.

Who were are is a constantly fluid construction, based on what has been chosen before, but also is subject to change at any time, based on we might - freely - choose in the future.

No-one has a set personality. It's a constantly morphing concept based on what we decide about what's in front of us at the time.

Except for Hal. He's an old determinist fart.

But he could choose to change that if he had the balls.

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by hal » Sun May 21, 2017 3:05 pm

BillyGoat wrote:Except for Hal. He's an old determinist fart.
But he could choose to change that if he had the balls.;)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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by Blake's Poisontree » Wed May 24, 2017 3:51 pm

BillyGoat wrote:I swing with the existentialists on this topic.

Free will is all we have. The choices that we make in life (chosen freely) define us.

Our personalities are shaped by our previous choices in life, but because we have the ability to choose anything in the future, we aren't defined by our prior choices.

Who were are is a constantly fluid construction, based on what has been chosen before, but also is subject to change at any time, based on we might - freely - choose in the future.

No-one has a set personality. It's a constantly morphing concept based on what we decide about what's in front of us at the time.


I agree about what you are saying about personality but for me the result, at whichever stage, is predetermined in one way or another. I am constantly analysing my behavioural responses as it pertains to my personality and my interaction with my immediate environment. There never is a "beginning" to anything, everything is influenced by (related) everything else. Of course I can only remember so far back and then either have to accept a beginning or just theorise the rest.

But in the end we all need to "believe" that we have free will otherwise our lives would be very depressing. I need to believe that I can change my circumstances, even if I know deep inside that "fate" has already decided the outcome. Or, I can opt for selective awareness. Value the good and f**k the rest.
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